Ath.I will explain my meaning still more clearly.They say that fire and water,and earth and air,all exist by nature and chance,and none of them by art,and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth,and sun,and moon,and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences.The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold,or of dry with moist,or of soft with hard,and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity.After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created,and all that is in the heaven,as well as animals and all plants,and all the seasons come from these elements,not by the action of mind,as they say,or of any God,or from art,but as I was saying,by nature and chance only.Art sprang up afterwards and out of these,mortal and of mortal birth,and produced in play certain images and very partial imitations of the truth,having an affinity to one another,such as music and painting create and their companion arts.And there are other arts which have a serious purpose,and these co-operate with nature,such,for example,as medicine,and husbandry,and gymnastic.And they say that politics cooperate with nature,but in a less degree,and have more of art;also that legislation is entirely a work of art,and is based on assumptions which are not true.
Cle.How do you mean?
Ath.In the first place,my dear friend,these people would say that the Gods exist not by nature,but by art,and by the laws of states,which are different in different places,according to the agreement of those who make them;and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law,and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature,but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them;and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature,but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-These,my friends,are the sayings of wise men,poets and prose writers,which find a way into the minds of youth.They are told by them that the highest right is might,and in this way the young fall into impieties,under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine;and hence arise factions,these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature,that is,to live in real dominion over others,and not in legal subjection to them.
Cle.What a dreadful picture,Stranger,have you given,and how great is the injury which is thus inflicted on young men to the ruin both of states and families!
Ath.True,Cleinias;but then what should the lawgiver do when this evil is of long standing?should he only rise up in the state and threaten all mankind,proclaiming that if they will not say and think that the Gods are such as the law ordains (and this may be extended generally to the honourable,the just,and to all the highest things,and to all that relates to virtue and vice),and if they will not make their actions conform to the copy which the law gives them,then he who refuses to obey the law shall die,or suffer stripes and bonds,or privation of citizenship,or in some cases be punished by loss of property and exile?Should he not rather,when he is ****** laws for men,at the same time infuse the spirit of persuasion into his words,and mitigate the severity of them as far as he can?
Cle.Why,Stranger,if such persuasion be at all possible,then a legislator who has anything in him ought never to weary of persuading men;he ought to leave nothing unsaid in support of the ancient opinion that there are Gods,and of all those other truths which you were just now mentioning;he ought to support the law and also art,and acknowledge that both alike exist by nature,and no less than nature,if they are the creations of mind in accordance with right reason,you appear to me to maintain,and I am disposed to agree with you in thinking.
Ath.Yes,my enthusiastic Cleinias;but are not these things when spoken to a multitude hard to be understood,not to mention that they take up a dismal length of time?
Cle.Why,Stranger,shall we,whose patience failed not when drinking or music were the themes of discourse,weary now of discoursing about the Gods,and about divine things?And the greatest help to rational legislation is that the laws when once written down are always at rest;they can be put to the test at any future time,and therefore,if on first hearing they seem difficult,there is no reason for apprehension about them,because any man however dull can go over them and consider them again and again;nor if they are tedious but useful,is there any reason or religion,as it seems to me,in any man refusing to maintain the principles of them to the utmost of his power.
Megillus.Stranger,I like what Cleinias is saying.
Ath.Yes,Megillus,and we should do as he proposes;for if impious discourses were not scattered,as I may say,throughout the world,there would have been no need for any vindication of the existence of the Gods-but seeing that they are spread far and wide,such arguments are needed;and who should come to the rescue of the greatest laws,when they are being undermined by bad men,but the legislator himself?
Meg.There is no more proper champion of them.
Ath.Well,then,tell me,Cleinias-for I must ask you to be my partner-does not he who talks in this way conceive fire and water and earth and air to be the first elements of all things?These he calls nature,and out of these he supposes the soul to be formed afterwards;and this is not a mere conjecture of ours about his meaning,but is what he really means.
Cle.Very true.