Cle.Very true;yet much of what has been asserted by us,Stranger is contrary to the custom of states;still,in saying that the discourse should be allowed to proceed,and that when the discussion is completed,we should choose what seems best,you spoke very properly,and I now feel compunction for what I have said.Tell me,then,what you would next wish to say.
Ath.I should wish to say,Cleinias,as I said before,that if the possibility of these things were not sufficiently proven in fact,then there might be an objection to the argument,but the fact being as Ihave said,he who rejects the law must find some other ground of objection;and,failing this,our exhortation will still hold good,nor will any one deny that women ought to share as far as possible in education and in other ways with men.For consider;-if women do not share in their whole life with men,then they must have some other order of life.
Cle.Certainly.
Ath.And what arrangement of life to be found anywhere is preferable to this community which we are now assigning to them?Shall we prefer that which is adopted by the Thracians and many other races who use their women to till the ground and to be shepherds of their herds and flocks,and to minister to them like slaves?-Or shall we do as we and people in our part of the world do-getting together,as the phrase is,all our goods and chattels into one dwelling,we entrust them to our women,who are the stewards of them,and who also preside over the shuttles and the whole art of spinning?Or shall we take a middle course,in Lacedaemon,Megillus-letting the girls share in gymnastic and music,while the grown-up women,no longer employed in spinning wool,are hard at work weaving the web of life,which will be no cheap or mean employment,and in the duty of serving and taking care of the household and bringing up children,in which they will observe a sort of mean,not participating in the toils of war;and if there were any necessity that they should fight for their city and families,unlike the Amazons,they would be unable to take part in archery or any other skilled use of missiles,nor could they,after the example of the Goddess,carry shield or spear,or stand up nobly for their country when it was being destroyed,and strike terror into their enemies,if only because they were seen in regular order?Living as they do,they would never dare at all to imitate the Sauromatides,who,when compared with ordinary women,would appear to be like men.Let him who will,praise your legislators,but I must say what I think.The legislator ought to be whole and perfect,and not half a man only;he ought not to let the female *** live softly and waste money and have no order of life,while he takes the utmost care of the male ***,and leaves half of life only blest with happiness,when he might have made the whole state happy.
Meg.What shall we do,Cleinias?Shall we allow a stranger to run down Sparta in this fashion?
Cle.Yes;for as we have given him liberty of speech we must let him go on until we have perfected the work of legislation.
Meg.Very true.
Ath.Then now I may proceed?
Cle.By all means.
Ath.What will be the manner of life among men who may be supposed to have their food and clothing provided for them in moderation,and who have entrusted the practice of the arts to others,and whose husbandry,committed to slaves paying a part of the produce,brings them a return sufficient for men living temperately;who,moreover,have common tables in which the men are placed apart,and near them are the common tables of their families,of their daughters and mothers,which day by day,the officers,male and female,are to inspect-they shall see to the behaviour of the company,and so dismiss them;after which the presiding magistrate and his attendants shall honour with libations those Gods to whom that day and night are dedicated,and then go home?To men whose lives are thus ordered,is there no work remaining to be done which is necessary and fitting,but shall each one of them live fattening like a beast?Such a life is neither just nor honourable,nor can he who lives it fail of meeting his due;and the due reward of the idle fatted beast is that he should be torn in pieces by some other valiant beast whose fatness is worn down by brave deeds and toil.These regulations,if we duly consider them,will never be exactly carried into execution under present circumstances,nor as long as women and children and houses and all other things are the private property of individuals;but if we can attain the second-best form of polity,we shall be very well off.