himself;for as yet all has been imperfect,and nothing has been said either clear or satisfactory?Now,as far as possible,the law ought to leave nothing to him,but to explain everything,that he may be an interpreter and tutor to others.About dances and music and choral strains,I have already spoken both to the character of the selection of them,and the manner in which they are to be amended and consecrated.But we have not as yet spoken,O illustrious guardian of education,of the manner in which your pupils are to use those strains which are written in prose,although you have been informed what martial strains they are to learn and practise;what relates in the first place to the learning of letters,and secondly,to the lyre,and also to calculation,which,as we were saying,is needful for them all to learn,and any other things which are required with a view to war and the management of house and city,and,looking to the same object,what is useful in the revolutions of the heavenly bodies-the stars and sun and moon,and the various regulations about these matters which are necessary for the whole state-I am speaking of the arrangements of;days in periods of months,and of months in years,which are to be observed,in order that seasons and sacrifices and festivals may have their regular and natural order,and keep the city alive and awake,the Gods receiving the honours due to them,and men having a better understanding about them:all these things,O my friend,have not yet been sufficiently declared to you by the legislator.Attend,then,to what I am now going to say:-We were telling you,in the first place,that you were not sufficiently informed about letters,and the objection was to this effect-that you were never told whether he who was meant to be a respectable citizen should apply himself in detail to that sort of learning,or not apply himself at all;and the same remark holds good of the study of the lyre.But now we say that he ought to attend to them.Afair time for a boy of ten years old to spend in letters is three years;the age of thirteen is the proper time for him to begin to handle the lyre,and he may continue at this for another three years,neither more nor less,and whether his father or himself like or dislike the study,he is not to be allowed to spend more or less time in learning music than the law allows.And let him who disobeys the law be deprived of those youthful honours of which we shall hereafter speak.Hear,however,first of all,what the young ought to learn in the early years of life,and what their instructors ought to teach them.They ought to be occupied with their letters until they are to read and write;but the acquisition of perfect beauty or quickness in writinig,if nature has not stimulated them to acquire these accomplishments in the given number of years,they should let alone.And as to the learning of compositions committed to writing which are not set to the lyre,whether metrical or without rhythmical divisions,compositions in prose,as they are termed,having no rhythm or harmony-seeing how dangerous are the writings handed down to us by many writers of this class-what will you do with them,O most excellent guardians of the law?or how can the lawgiver rightly direct you about them?I believe that he will be in great difficulty.
Cle.What troubles you,Stranger?and why are you so perplexed in your mind?
Ath.You naturally ask,Cleinias,and to you and Megillus,who are my partners in the work of legislation,I must state the more difficult as well as the easier parts of the task.
Cle.To what do you refer in this instance?
Ath.I will tell you.There is a difficulty in opposing many myriads of mouths.
Cle.Well,and have we not already opposed the popular voice in many important enactments?
Ath.That is quite true;and you mean to imply,that the road which we are taking may be disagreeable to some but is agreeable to as many others,or if not to as many,at any rate to persons not inferior to the others,and in company with them you bid me,at whatever risk,to proceed along the path of legislation which has opened out of our present discourse,and to be of good cheer,and not to faint.
Cle.Certainly.
Ath.And I do not faint;I say,indeed,that we have a great many poets writing in hexameter,trimeter,and all sorts of measures-some who are serious,others who aim only at raising a laugh-and all mankind declare that the youth who are rightly educated should be brought up in them and saturated with them;some insist that they should be constantly hearing them read aloud,and always learning them,so as to get by heart entire poets;while others select choice passages and long speeches,and make compendiums of them,saying that these ought to be committed to memory,if a man is to be made good and wise by experience and learning of many things.And you want me now to tell them plainly in what they are right and in what they are wrong.
Cle.Yes,I do.
Ath.But how can I in one word rightly comprehend all of them?I am of opinion,and,if I am not mistaken,there is a general agreement,that every one of these poets has said many things well and many things the reverse of well;and if this be true,then I do affirm that much learning is dangerous to youth.
Cle.How would you advise the guardian of the law to act?
Ath.In what respect?
Cle.I mean to what pattern should he look as his guide in permitting the young to learn some things and forbidding them to learn others.Do not shrink from answering.
Ath.My good Cleinias,I rather think that I am fortunate.
Cle.How so?